How to Avoid Being on the Bad Employer List with Jon Hyman

Sometimes it is tricky to navigate the landscape of being an employer. Yet many times it is the obvious things that trip us up the most. Ohio Employment Lawyer Jon Hyman joins the Toolbox today to talk about why he is known as the "Master of Workplace Schadenfreude". He also shares some ways to avoid making his Worst Employer list on his blog!

Plus, Jon shares his recipe for Smoked Sausage and Peppers! He also brags on his pellet smoker from Grilla Grills! You can find the recipes, and many more besides, on the Smoke and Ash Facebook group or by emailing paul@BoldlyLead.com.

You can get a copy of Paul's eBook 15 Innovative Ways to Show Employees You Care and Not Break the Bank by emailing him at paul@BoldlyLead.com.

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Transcript

Producer: 0:00

The tech leaders toolbox podcast is brought to you by Paul Simkins and the bully LEAD program, focusing on helping tech leaders like you, and the frustration of low performing teams, and losing excellent employees, so they can increase productivity by 50%. Go home on time, and sleep better at nights.

Paul Simkins: 0:22

Hello, and welcome to the tech leaders toolbox. I'm Paul Simkins. And we're here because how you lead today determines how your team succeeds tomorrow. This is Episode 52, the tech leaders toolbox podcast, and today we've got a guest on who spends his time not only helping employers stay legal, but also helps educate them on how to never get there to begin with. And he does he keeps a blog and he's got some interesting things to share with us today. So are you ready? Let's go. With tongue planted firmly in cheek, our guest refers to himself as the master of workplace SHODAN froideur. He's a partner in the law and employment group of Meyers Roman freedberg and Lewis in Cleveland, Ohio, and is also the lead of their Coronavirus Task Force he applies is more than two decades of experience to help employers proactively solve their workplace problems. He's an author of the award winning Ohio employers law blog at Ohio employer law blog calm, and he's an in demand resource for journalists. He's been in the Wall Street Journal msnbc.com, Cleveland, calm. Crain's Cleveland business, Fox, Business News, NPR and Huffington Post live. Well As if that wasn't enough, when he's not working to save employers, he also works as an unpaid manager and roadie for his kids aspiring rock and roll careers. Please help me welcome attorney john Hyman. JOHN, welcome to the show.

Unknown: 2:06

Hey, Paul. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Paul Simkins: 2:09

Now, we're kind of a testament to the power of LinkedIn, because that's where we met. Right? We first encountered each other on LinkedIn.

Unknown: 2:15

Yeah, we did.

Paul Simkins: 2:16

Yeah. And we have a mutual friend, Suzanne Lucas, who you and you and her kind of trampled the same dirt in that area.

Unknown: 2:26

We do one of my all time favorite people. great person. Okay.

Paul Simkins: 2:30

Well, john, I always I always like to ask this question because I love to hear stories, people's stories, their backgrounds, their journeys, how they got where they are, just tell us so much. So let's hear your journey. How'd you get here?

Unknown: 2:45

How did I get here? Wow. So I've been practicing employment law for them from the management side for 24 years now. And, you know, you mentioned my tagline on LinkedIn, the master of workplace chat in Freud. And it's funny, I always it's, I came up with that a couple of years ago, and I've always thought of, I've always understood shatin Freud to mean traditional definition is like taking misery or taking pleasure in the misery of others, which is kind of what I do for a living, right. So I, on a day to day basis, talk to employers counsel them through their problems with employees, and the issues that they're having. Which could be anything from so the harassment issue, so and so's dog is barking in the background so and so's? I have I have one in the crate and the puppies in the crate and one is on the couch and the mailman comes to the door but with their Amazon comes with the door. Yeah, they're gonna go out and do so. So I've always thought of myself as kind of that's what I do. And then I listened to a great podcast put on by Vox media call today explained right back when a right after Donald Trump was diagnosed with COVID. And they got into the concept of shad and Freud on the podcast and they went through a bunch of different kind of philosophers, interpretations of the term and I was a philosophy major in college. And so that kind of piqued that kind of piqued my interest. And I honed in on the definitions of Shannon for it a given by two different philosophers. I think it more accurately describes me more than taking pleasure in the misery of others does sound a town's kind of kind of gallows humor, kind of bleak, I think. And so. Michel de montagne, ah, he referred to shad and Freud as he likened it to human vulnerability, that you're not necessarily celebrating someone else's calamity. But you're celebrating the fact that by comparison to the misfortune that someone else is suffering, you're not you're safe, you're well you're doing okay. And then famous French philosopher Rene Descartes, who he likened, shouted Freud to an act of justice, that when something bad happens to someone that you kind of feel it's it's an earned misfortune, that you're not taking joy unnecessarily in their misfortune, but joy in someone kind of getting what they deserve. That you're celebrating, whether you call it karma, or cosmic justice, or whatever, you're celebrating the, the kind of cosmic fairness of the situation. And so I kind of take those two and put them together. And that's kind of where I fall on the spectrum of now how I think of myself as the master of workplace shadow in Florida, that I'm not necessarily celebrating the misfortune of the employees that I'm giving companies counsel on, but it's usually something that someone has done to deserve the misfortune that's been falling them, they've harass someone, they're a bad performer, they're chronically late. Whatever it is, employers don't fire, good employees, employers fire, bad employees, and they come to me to find out how to do it legally incorrect, correctly, within the confines of what's not going to get them sued. Usually, if they have, they have the misfortune of not coming to me first, then they may be calling me to bail them out of a lawsuit. But either way, you know, when I refer to myself as the master of workplace shout in Florida, it's I think of myself in that kind of cosmic justice warrior. motif, probably more closely aligned to what Descartes had to say.

Paul Simkins: 6:40

Now, so now, you mentioned there that you said, Well, you know, employers don't fire good employees, they fire bad employees. But certainly, you've probably encountered some employers who have tried to fire employees that, you know, even even if in their mind, they're not they're actually pretty good employees. But for whatever reason, they they want to get rid of them. Yeah, I

Unknown: 7:04

mean, I think it comes down to how you define I mean, good could have a bunch of different definitions. It could be a great performer, but a lousy attitude. It could be a mediocre performer, but someone who's just so likable and affable and gets along with everybody that it makes it, you know, they're, they're a good you know, they're just good to have around in the workplace. So it's, it's a different definition of it depends how you're defining good, I've seen lots of situations where, and this is where employers can get themselves in trouble where a high performer might have an affinity for making crass comments to the women that they work with, or might have a penchant for treating African American coworkers worse, they treat their than the worse they treat their white coworkers. And you might say, well, they're their top salesman, so we're gonna give them a pass, or we're going to give them extra chances, because they make so much damn money that we don't want to, you know, that we don't want to get rid of them. And that's where that's where employers can get themselves in trouble by allowing bad behavior to fester in the name of good performance.

Paul Simkins: 8:09

Exactly. Yeah. And I see that a lot where Oh, well, but they're our top producer. So you've given them carte blanche, then?

Unknown: 8:17

Yeah. Which is unfortunately, what happens sometimes. And that's where, yeah, and now you now I'm in the difficult situation of having to explain to a judge or jury why, you know, you've been allowing so and so to harass, you know, their female subordinates for years. And it's well, because they're a $10 million dollar salesperson, which is great. But that doesn't justify them in, you know, treating their co workers badly. No.

Paul Simkins: 8:41

Yeah. And a lot of times, it doesn't take into account the fact that, that, yeah, so they're producing more than everybody else. But at the same time, because of their attitude, because of the impact, they're having a morale in the workplace, and everything else is affecting everyone else's productivity.

Unknown: 8:59

So what? Yeah, that's, that's 100%. Correct. I mean, there is a, I mean, there is a balance that goes on here, right. So yeah, when someone is crushing morale like that, you have to wonder what impact it's having on the productivity of all the people that they're harassing, discriminated against or otherwise treating, you know, poorly on a day to day basis. Okay.

Paul Simkins: 9:19

So now, reading a lot of your posts on LinkedIn, and a lot of your blog post. Somebody just on the surface would think, well, you're really an employee side lawyer, but you actually refer to yourself as a management side lawyer. So reconcile that a little bit? Sure.

Unknown: 9:37

I think there is a lot that employers can learn from employers who do things incorrectly. And so when I write which I do on a daily basis on my blog, the Ohio employer law blog, and then on LinkedIn and Twitter and other places online, I am trying to draw teachable moments for Employers from employers should do things badly. That's why four years ago, I started running my worst employer series of posts where over the course of the year, I gather, really, employers who acted really, really poorly towards their employees. And then at the end of the, at the end of each year, I run a poll or a survey, where people get a chance to vote on who they think is the the quote, unquote, wash, worst employer of the year. And you're right. I mean, people could say, you know, hi, man, that's, that's, you know, you're really advocating for employees here. And I guess in some regard, I am, but in the hat I wear when I'm counseling my clients, which is one of an outside, outside in House Counsel, right, for companies that don't have an in house counsel that focuses on employment law, or might have an in house generalist. They come to me for their kind of day to day HR and employment law advice, and I'm not doing my job correctly, if I'm not telling them how to stay out of trouble. And one of the best ways to do that, at least in my writings, is by giving employers teachable moments from employers that did things badly. So it's easy to you could look at it as you're advocating from the employee side. But in reality, what I'm doing is advocating for employers to treat their employees in a way that is fair, that is just that is legal, and that's going to keep them out of it, it's going to keep metal lawsuits. Yeah, I

Paul Simkins: 11:29

was gonna say really, I mean by, by both advocating for how you treat employees, well, you are being a management side lawyer, because the consultant and counselor because Because again, like you said, keeping him out of trouble, but not just keeping him out of trouble. But, you know, again, studies have shown again, and again, how we treat our employees affects the organization, it affects productivity, it affects our customer service, and customer satisfaction. So by working with them on that level, you're really helping the organization as a whole, the employer as a whole be more successful. And, and again, keeping themselves out of trouble too.

Unknown: 12:13

Yeah, I mean, you're, you're 100% correct. You can be an advocate for employers treating their employees correctly, without being up, you know, a quote unquote, sellout for the other side of wherever, however, you want to frame it. And I've been and I've had people call me that as well, well, you're, you know, your show for employees, you're not, you know, you're not a, you know, you should be digging your heels in and find them, and fighting, you know, and fighting for employers to treat people badly. I've had people tell me that it's the business's right to do that. And that's such a such a short sighted view of how to manage of how to manage employees, you should in my view, the employment relationship above all else is one that's built on trust 100% and when that trust breaks down, the relationship is broken, and you're not going to have a trust relationship, if you don't treat your employees fairly justly reasonably, across the board in all cases.

Paul Simkins: 13:13

So yeah, I think again, this is an area where you and I kind of trample on the same dirt and that you know, I'm the same way and that you know, on the surface the way I talk about the way I talk about being values based and all that and a lot of it revolves around again, what you're saying to employees how you're treating employees how you're encouraging them and it seems like again, I'm shilling employees, but you know, they're not the ones who pay me to do it. You know, just like you know, the employer is the one who pays you not the employee. And again, what is good for the employee is good for the employer.

Unknown: 13:53

That's right I mean, I'm not I'm shilling for good business practices, I'm shilling for getting a good return on your investment from your employees, employees that are treated well work harder, they do better for you. They produce more shilling for not having a revolving door of employees because employees don't stay at don't stay with bad employers. They might come in but six months later, they're going to be gone looking for a better opportunity at a place that treats them better. Better employees treat your customers better, they treat the public better. It creates a better public image for your business, all of which generates revenue. So I'm not I'm not shilling for the employees I'm shilling for advocating for good business practices, which includes treating your employees well, which has such a huge return on investment for the business.

Paul Simkins: 14:41

Yeah, probably 95 to 98% of the time. The people facing your customers are your employees and not necessarily you especially if you're more towards the executive levels within an organization that the people who are in the trenches facing your customers are Every single day or your clients every single day are your employees.

Unknown: 15:03

Yeah, that's 100%. That's 100%. Correct. And we've seen that amplified even more over the past nine months with a pandemic, with, you know, businesses that have not treated their employees well, like from a health and state from a health and safety standpoint, the bad PR that's generated, and then how that translates into public perception of that, you know, of that particular business, I think. I mean, there's businesses, I won't, I won't frequent anymore because of how they have treated their employees over the pandemic. And I think the what I hope is one of the long term impacts when we come out of COVID. On the other side is that those as many, many businesses are struggling, the businesses that survive are the ones that treated their employees Well, during this day, allowed folks to work to work from home when they when they were able to do so they advocated for masks and social distancing. And all the same hand washing and all the things we need to do to keep ourselves healthy and safe. I'm hoping they're the businesses that come out of this thriving, and the ones that have not done things. Well, the ones that are paying attendance bonuses, to entice people to come in when they're sick, the ones that aren't enforcing mask mandates in the workplace, the ones where senior leaders are having COVID symptoms, but coming into work anyway are encouraging employees to do. So. I'm hoping those are the ones that it because I think we all realize that not every business is going to survive this pandemic, and lots are going to unfortunately, close their doors. I'm hoping the ones that don't survive, are the ones that are not treating their folks. Well, the ones that do survive are the ones that are that are advocating for their employees health and safety both in what they say it what they you know, and what they do.

Paul Simkins: 16:50

Yeah, you know, one of the things I often see during these kinds of things, I saw this back when we had the big economic hit a few years ago. Actually, it goes way back now. I keep thinking about just a few years ago, but that

Unknown: 17:03

was actually like, I was like a decade ago.

Paul Simkins: 17:05

Yeah, exactly. And what I saw back then, and what I'm seeing now, with some people with the pandemic is, there are some leaders that their natural tendency is in the midst of a crisis is to basically contract that, that even if they were employing evil, or utilizing more empowering skills with their workforce, they tend to retreat back into a very autocratic style of leadership in the midst of a crisis, you know, so they take away all that empowerment that they were given before, all the ways in which their employees were producing for them. And they cut back on that and, and even though they'll do layoffs, and and again, everything to kind of retract down thinking they have to contract during a crisis. And I noticed the ones that really do well, during these kinds of situations. In fact, one of the ones that been a guest on the show a couple of times is pangolin, laser systems. What they did was they expanded in the midst of the crisis. And it's gone exceedingly well for them. They double down on investing in their employees during the crisis, finding ways for them to continue to be productive.

Unknown: 18:28

Yeah, the I think that I was having this conversation with someone this morning, I think the pandemic has amplified both the best, best and worst in people and businesses. And I think, and I think what it's really done, I think has amplified kind of who we are as people or or what a business's core values are, for better or for worse. And, and I think it's given, like in my personal life, it's it's given me insight into kind of the the essence of who people are. It's brought out some qualities and people that I didn't think they had, and it's caused me to, you know, reconsider relationships based on how people have behaved. And I think it's the same with businesses. I think it's brought out, you know, for businesses that have said, you know, we are, you know, we're not allowing any work from home, everybody needs to come in 40 hours a week, no questions asked. But that's, I mean, that's an issue of trust, you do that because you don't trust that your people can perform when you're not micromanaging them, you know, with eyeballs on them. 24 seven or or, you know, eight 840, whatever. And so it's, it's, it's really, I think, amplified the shortcomings of a lot of businesses. And, you know, is that really if you're an employee, do you want to work for a boss, for example, that's not going to trust me. They're paying you a lot of money. Do your job, you presume they're doing so because they trust you to do it competently? Well, diligently work hard. All those things? And do you want to work for? Do you want to work for a boss or manager who in their actions by saying, we can't have you work at home, we're going to require you to come into the workplace, even though we're in the midst of this pandemic, and it might not be safe to do so all the time, we're going to require you to come in, what that tells me is, they don't trust you to do your job unless they're watching you. Right. And so it really I think, amplifies the shortcomings of a lot of businesses in that regard, for example.

Paul Simkins: 20:35

Okay, so now, you mentioned earlier, you mentioned the current, I guess you said survey, but contest as well, that you hold for the worst employer of the year. And this is Yeah, fourth year 2020 was the fourth year you've done that? Right? It is

Unknown: 20:51

yes.

Paul Simkins: 20:52

So. So again, now by the time we as we recorded this, you just closed out the survey. And I'm assuming either you're tallying the results, or you've tallied the results and all that

Unknown: 21:06

the results are tallied. And as we are recording, they will be announced tomorrow.

Paul Simkins: 21:11

Okay. Okay, so that's it is that they're already available out on by the time people hear this, it's already out there on correct on your blog. So not to be not to give a split, we won't be a spoiler alert at this point in time. I know I had my, for lack of a better word favorites out of the list. What is the one that stood out the most to you out of that list?

Unknown: 21:39

Well, there were two and there without that it's the Well, there's three that really stood out in the two this year. Historically, I've done just one award, the last three years I've done it this year, because COVID has been so I mean, it's been the story of 2020. And as I was compiling the list this year, I found that there were it was, it seemed to be unfair to put the bad COVID employers in the same category. It's just the bad employers overall, especially split the voting this year to two separate categories. And in the, in the worst employer non COVID. category. I'm just a regular old lousy employer. The winner, the winner was a runaway. It was the the the company that brought someone over from India and then lock them in the storage room at the business. He was coming over a stencil before a job yeah, and they locked him in the storage room at the business with just a hard floor to sleep on. And like a bucket to go to the bathroom in. I called them that the best part of the survey is always the naming each nominee so this was the this was the horrific human traffickers what I call this particular one. And so they were the they were the runaway winner. And I thought they would be in the it's actually the second year in a row that we've had a human trafficker win the award and other human trafficker won last year, and that person is actually now spending 10 years in federal prison as a result of their actions. And the people beat this couple in California, this year's winner, they're under indictment right now. And their story has yet to play out at least from a criminal standpoint. On the COVID side, I thought for sure, for sure that Tyson Foods was going to win the COVID Award for their they. In one of their pork processing plants in Iowa, they had a bunch of managers that were running a betting pool for which of their employees were going to fall sick with COVID. And while this is going on, like 1000 of the employees out of the 3000 that work there, were falling ill with COVID they had five employee deaths, all from what the sheriff of this particular town who came into the plant described as some of the worst working conditions he's ever seen in his life. And so just a safety, a safety nightmare, from top to bottom. And so just the callousness of managers betting on which of their employees were going to fall sick with COVID as a more than 1000 of them were and some of them were dying. I thought that was going to be a runaway winner. They weren't the winner this year was actually the company that fired a work from home mom after her one year old and four year old interrupted a zoom call she was on

Paul Simkins: 24:25

See that? That was the one and the ones I voted for was on the COVID side was I voted for that the employer fire the mom because he complained about you know about the kids making noise in the background but he wouldn't adjust the schedule would make any accommodation you

Unknown: 24:40

just like well what did you expect to do you know, right she gave up right she gave she said like you know these these are my kids nap times. Can you please You know, can you please make scheduled conference calls if we have to have conference calls during the time that my kids are napping? And she said that he I caught wind of it her post. She put up an Instagram post after She was fired that went viral. You know, and she said, in the post, which I thought was really compelling, you know, people told me to forget about it just to go on, you know, go find another job and not make a big deal out of this. And she's like, and I'm fighting for, you know, I'm fighting for every working mom out there that has you know, that has kids from home, it feels like they have to choose between, you know, their kids or their jobs. You know, I'm doing this for everybody. And I thought that was a really compelling story. But the count again, the callousness of the conduct, the, you know, scheduling meetings, when she purposely said she wasn't available, because that's when her kids were awakened, needed attention, like during mealtimes or snack times. You know, she said, not a single client ever complained about, you know, about a kid interrupting during the call. I mean, I, and I can I've been home now since March, march 13. was my last day in the office. I've been working from home since then, I got you know, I heard we heard your dogs before. I said, I have two dogs. My kids are home and my kids are home on winter break. Right now I have a 12 year old and a 14 year old their home on break. I mean, interruptions happened, right? I mean, it's just I think people, I think people more often than not understand that these are different times, interruptions do happen. And I think to punish a mom working from home because her one year old is crying in the background, or her four year old wants a snack or a glass of milk. And it really reveals some really dangerous inherent sex based biases that that particular manager holds. And, and so while they while the outcome surprised me, I thought for sure that Tyson Foods was going to win in the COVID category, definitely a worthy winner, the company that that sack that that sack the mom because her her infant and toddler were interrupting zoom calls.

Paul Simkins: 26:46

And did you hear that story? It almost smacks of a setup, you know that? She goes, Well, you know, this is the time my kids are awakened. They're going to need attention during these times. And he insists, well, that's when we've got to meet and you better figure out a way to shut him up.

Unknown: 26:58

It's it certainly does. It certainly does. You know, and she said, you know, she alleges that, you know, men working from home didn't get the same, you know, got much more deference, but their schedules. And that it she definitely felt like it was being done purposely set her up. And it's hard to argue when you say I'm not available from two to three. And every time your boss schedules a conference call, it's between two and three. It certainly seems like to make your life more difficult for you, or at the very least hit the power play. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Don't

Paul Simkins: 27:27

forget who's in charge, you know, right. Yeah. Empty. And actually, I was surprised at that. Because I mean, you find in most cases, that kind of thing happening because there's several there's been several very public circumstances where that's happened in the last several months that have made the news and gone viral on the internet. And in most cases, is very endearing. People love that. It's just so cute. Like, there was the one there is the guy being interviewed on the air. And this kid came in the background camera background starts playing around in the background, and everybody loved it. Right nobody said What's the matter? Can't you control your kid they all thought it was great and cute and and but this boss isn't. I was actually surprised though. The winner on the non COVID side because again, that story again. It is very horrific. What they've done in almost Yo, you like see this on TV dramas, that kind of stuff happening and you know, can't be real, but Yeah, it is. But the one I thought would it wouldn't there would have been the mom that got fired while she was dealing with your son's leukemia.

Unknown: 28:37

Yeah, that's a really good answer across the

Paul Simkins: 28:40

country. And met her in the hotel lobby where her son was being treated to fire her.

Unknown: 28:48

Yeah, that would they came in second in the non COVID category, but a pretty distant second. But yeah, that's also just uh, what what kills you on that story is where the mom says after she was fired, she went up to her son's her 10 year old was upstairs being getting, you know, chemo for his leukemia, getting treatments and she goes up to the room. And her son says to her mom, I'm really sorry, my cancer got you fired. Like how does that not just rip your freakin heart out?

Paul Simkins: 29:24

And now you got to wonder with some of these like, like the Tyson Foods example. How the upper, you know, executive level within Tyson is reacting to that because because reading the story, I didn't see anything where there was really any kind of reaction from the management, you know, from the executive levels.

Unknown: 29:46

Yeah, so the upside the update on that story is news came out last late last week that seven of the managers who were involved were fired by Tyson. So After the Yeah, Oh, good. Good, but also about eight months too late. So yeah. I mean, it's it's a failing and you know, and I can understand, you know, maybe maybe senior management senior leadership within the table we didn't know. But you should have known this was going on. If you understand what's going on in your plant, you should have known what was going on, you still created an atmosphere where where management felt that that was okay to happen. You were by at least if you read the lawsuit, that you were still encouraging a workplace with very few safety controls, with employees, you know, getting sick and dying, with an attendance policy that was put in place a perfect attendance bonus that was put in place by senior leadership that was supposed to encourage people to come to work, even if they were sick, where senior leadership was, if you believe the allegations of lawsuit, were afraid to go down on the plant floor for fear of catching COVID. Because how bad the working conditions were. So they allowed all this to happen. And so yeah, it's great. They fired they finally fired these managers, eight months later, after the allegations went viral. Right. But it's, it's at that point, it's, to me, that's, I don't think they get any awards for that at this point. I think it's a little too little a little too late

Paul Simkins: 31:23

now. And you still have to look at what kind of culture you provide you created that allowed that, to even have the possibility of existing. Exactly. I know, in a lot of these kinds of organizations. I mean, one of the jobs I worked on years ago was with a company that provides ground services at airports all around the world. And one of the things we found through that was a lot of location managers had their own little kingdoms there. That, you know, basically at at an airport site, the, the site manager was king, he could do whatever he wanted. And as long as you know, the numbers were up, nobody bothered him. Right. And it's that kind of culture, you know, hey, as long as you're still producing you, whatever. Exactly. I'm to keep tabs on you.

Unknown: 32:13

Yes, keep pumping up, keep pumping out that poor people need their bacon. Yep.

Paul Simkins: 32:18

A bacon makes everything better.

Unknown: 32:19

That you know, that's all right. So what's so again,

Paul Simkins: 32:27

as you've observed, what's on your list of the top pandemic challenges that employers have just failed to meet?

Unknown: 32:34

I think work from home is is one of them. I think that's been a big failure across the board. I think it's a it's a huge, I think missed opportunity for a lot of employers to embrace the flexibility that that technology affords us nowadays. And I think that's, I think that's that's a huge Miss. And I think we've already already talked about that. So no need to retread that. I think another one is, and I think this is a national mess, not just employers, but is the the paid leave that we provide to our employees, we are so far behind the rest of the world in what we offer employees, both from a paid leave and a paid sick leave in a paid family leave standpoint. I mean, there's countries like Iran that offer their employees more paid leave on a national level than we do. And we offer with one exception, we offer our employees nationally like zero, not like paid sick leave. And when when Iran is doing something better than we are. From a progressive standpoint, we are we are written it's a huge swing and miss on our part. And so yeah, and there was, you know, federal legislation that went into effect April, one that I have heard rumor, although I have not yet seen the bill. And by the time this time this airs like it's one or the answer for sure, but that will be extended into 2021 because it expires on its face. December 31 of this year. The paid paid family and sick leave for Coronavirus related absences, the families first coronavirus response Act, which offers 80 hours of paid sick leave. And then an additional 10 weeks of paid family leave for childcare related absences. But on the sick leave side. Like if you get sick and then your family members get sick and you're I mean 80 hours is likely not enough to give a buffer or a cushion to employees that might be dealing with COVID particularly as people maybe who are really sick might need you know might be sick for more than two weeks. And it's just so I think it's a huge I think it's a huge swing and miss and employers particularly as you know businesses contract during the pandemic. A lot of employers just don't have the financial ability to provide sickly benefits to their employees right now. Anyway, but on the federal level, which is being funded by payroll tax credit, I think it was a massive mess. A if it's not extended, which we now think it's going to be, but be just on the amount of the leave in general, I think it's and I think it points to, and President Elect Biden has already said that, like paid, you know, paid leave for employees is going to be a priority of his, in his in his administration, it's something that we as a nation, I think, really, really need to do, because you're forcing people, again, to choose between, like their health or their jobs. And it's, it's, it's not a, it's not a fair choice to ask someone to choose between, you know, coming into work when you're sick, versus, you know, staying at home and maybe losing a job. It's just not, it's just not a fair trade for workers. Yeah,

Paul Simkins: 35:49

I've been a big proponent of for the last few years of not even tracking that anymore, you know, just basically an unlimited leave policy. You know, and the argument you have my, my father, when, when he was around, my father was CEO of several credit unions, and he and I would get into this, get into the argument, he's gone like, well, people will take advantage of that. I said, Well, except for in the places where they've done it, they don't, the bigger problem they have is getting them to actually take time off. Yeah, and

Unknown: 36:23

a lot of companies are moving to like unlimited PTO policies where you just kind of take it when you can. And I think you're, you're right, I think the problem with those policies is that people don't take it, they're like, well, I don't I, I never have that we're so busy, I never had the opportunity to take my PTO. So I'm just going to work 52 weeks out of the year, where at least if you have if you have four weeks of vacation, and then you lose it at the end of the year, if you don't use it, at least you're looking at a finite pot of time. And I think you're more inclined and particularly companies that like I'm also not a fan of companies that pay out employees for unused vacation time that, you know, we're going to give you four weeks of vacation, but if you don't use it, we'll pay you out at the end of the year, we want to be encouraging our workers to take time off, right, it's good for it's good for their mind is good for their bodies that rejuvenate them, they come back rested, they work harder. I think there's lots of good reasons why we want our workers taking time and like some Europe, some European countries, for example, go so far as to if you leave vacation time on the table at the end of the year, you pay tax on it. So yeah, so they really want to encourage their people to take their time off. So it's it's something that organizations should be encouraging folks to do. So I'm not a huge fan of the unlimited PTO, I think an open ended leave of absence policy for employees, medical issues, etc. Whether if they've exhausted their FMLA and need additional time off, or if you're a small business and are covered by the FMLA i think is a great policy to have. It's still I think the issue is still there, because most of these situations that the leaves are unpaid. So that so I think you still have the issue, the issue of how if you do need an extended one month, two month, three months, six month leave of absence, because it's a medical issue. I think the issue is still there. How do you how do you get paid for it and maybe, you know, maybe short term or long term disability insurance kick kick in and provide, you know, some cushion? So that's an A lot of employers offer that. But from a paid leave standpoint, we are. We're just there's really no excuse why we find ourselves so far behind the rest of the world. Yeah,

Paul Simkins: 38:31

well, you know, what some of those organizations have done with the unlimited leave, is again, because the problem they were having with people not taking it is what they did was Institute minimums. So it wasn't there wasn't a maximum of Oh, you can only take three weeks a year, it was you must take at least two weeks a year.

Unknown: 38:50

Yeah, which is a great compromise,

Paul Simkins: 38:52

you know, and, and that way again, so if there has to be any kind of accounting, and it takes a lot less accounting to do that, than it does to sit here and track sick leave here and to track how much vacation time you've used over here and how much you have left and how much is unused and what we're carrying over and everything else and just say, look somewhere in here, you better take you the equivalent of two weeks off, right as you go along. And and again, because they like you said they've got to have a little bit of recharge time, even if it's just yo Hey, go and have a life outside of us. That's okay. Right. So now based on your experience, how do you think personal or organizational core values drive decision making in the organizations that you counsel?

Unknown: 39:41

I think I think they do. I think they do hugely drive decision making I think we are I, I try to the extent I can and we all have bills to pay and so you know I so I can always dictate where the work comes from. But I do but I do try to work with businesses whose core values align with my Because they're gonna be more apt to follow my advice. So when I, you know, when I, when I talk about treating people, well treat people the way you would want to be treated treat people the way you'd want your spouse to be treated in the workplace or your children or whomever I try to find, to the extent I can work with businesses, whose core values in that regard align with mine, because I think they're going to be more receptive to my advice, I've definitely after doing this for 24 years, I've definitely developed a philosophy on how I think businesses should treat their workers. And if you, if your organization's core values are not aligned with my personal philosophy, and how you're going to treat people, you're going to push back against the advice I'm going to give you because my, because the advice I'm going to give you is going to be molded around that concept of the goal of essentially the golden rule. And so and, and, you know, why pay me for advice, you're not going to follow, right. So I think I'm better off working with businesses whose core values match up with, you know, match up with my own. But that said, I've also had some success over the years. If you're not going to look at it from a inverting this path, but if you're not going to look at it from a this is the right way to treat people standpoint, maybe maybe a business might be motivated by if you're not don't think that's the right way to treat people you might be motivated by this is what's going to keep us out of court, or if we get sued is going to put us in a good position with a judge or jury. And so you can look at it from a bottom line standpoint as well, and said, I've had some success, converting employers that are more dollars and cents oriented to look at it from that perspective as well. So

Paul Simkins: 41:42

yeah, sometimes you have to hit the head and the heart. And exactly. And I know like, again, you're one of the things I do, I do a lot of disc profile stuff. And I if I'm talking to a tight D, a D type, because again, they're very task oriented, hard charging, again, if I can give them bullet points that prove that give them data that proves that this is the best approach, you know, in that keyword, if for the results you want, this is what you need to do. That's how I'm going to appeal to them. Where is more of an eye type like me, I'm going to go, look, you're going to like yourself better, you're going to enjoy your people better, they're going to enjoy you better, everybody's going to like you. Yeah. And that Okay, that's a good reason for me,

Unknown: 42:25

you know, right, exactly the right thing

Paul Simkins: 42:26

to do. Okay,

Unknown: 42:27

exactly. All right. So

Paul Simkins: 42:30

john, what's one tip or one thing a leader can do or apply today to add value to their team?

Unknown: 42:36

Yeah, I, as I said a minute ago, I think it all comes down to the golden rule, or maybe treat others as you'd want to be treated. Or maybe you take it one step further, what I and some others called the Platinum rule, treat others as they want to be treated, I think is the best way to manage your workers. I think it's the best way to instill loyalty, get good return on your investment, which is what your I mean, which is the end of the day. I mean, I hate to look at people employees as an investment, but that's really what they are. They're, they're an investment in your business, and you're paying good money for that investment. So why wouldn't you want to get? Why wouldn't you want to get a good return on it? treat them as you would want to be treated. If you were in their shoes, treat them as they want to be treated on a day to day basis. I think if businesses followed business leaders followed those kind of core concepts that we're supposed to be learning, like in kindergarten, right? I think 95% of employment issues would either never become issues or kind of solve themselves before they ever got escalated to me. And so maybe, maybe I don't want businesses to do that. Because maybe that puts me out of a job. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, like, for me, like the best clients are the ones that get sued, because that's where the money is, but the best, but it's always better for a business not to be in that situation. And so, to me, I would much rather a business leader, pick up the phone, shoot off an email, spend a half an hour to an hour talking to someone to solve a problem before it becomes a problem, then to not do that, make a legally, a legally risky decision to end up in litigation, which again, is great for my bottom line litigation. You know, you're looking at, you know, six figures in legal fees, which is great for me, but it's terrible for business. Nobody, nobody ever wins when you litigate. It's time consuming. It takes your people away from what they need to do to move your business forward. Nobody, it's hard to move a business far when people are sitting in conference rooms being deposed, or going through personnel files or reams of documents or emails to you know, produce stuff to the other side, it just it it just puts your business in either neutral or reverse and you want you want it to be you know, in Drive moving forward, it's hard to do that. And then you have the legal bills on top of that and then settlements or judgments or to prove yourself, right? You might spend a quarter million dollars in legal fees to prove that. Yeah, you were right in firing that employee, but what have you accomplished at that point? And so I'd much rather businesses spend some time with me on the front end than on the back end. But I understand. I understand that it's better for me if they do it on the back end, but it's just the worst part. It's just the worst possible solution for businesses. Yeah.

Paul Simkins: 45:21

So basically follow that golden rule is exactly, yeah. There you go. JOHN, thank you very much.

Unknown: 45:27

Thank you, Paul. This was great. I really appreciate it.

Producer: 45:30

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Paul Simkins: 45:59

And we're back and again in this last part of the show. As I always like to do I love to share my love for outdoor cooking, I do all kinds I have a grill I have a nice charcoal grill. I have a smoker and I do a lot of stuff on that. Being My background is a boys both as a scout and as a scout here I do a lot of camping and cook over open fire with my Dutch ovens and fact, getting ready to to do some cooking with my Dutch ovens here real soon in the next couple of days and do a lot of that stuff. And so I love it so much. I've actually created a Facebook group called smoke indash. And on the smoking dash Facebook group, me and all of my friends are also lovers of outdoor cooking. And we share recipes, we share pictures of our cookers, we brag on our cookers and brag on what we're making for the next holiday and so forth in the next weekend. And you're welcome to come and join us out there I think you'll really enjoy it whether you're brand new to outdoor cooking, just curious about it, or whether you're an experienced cooker. There's something for you out there and I invite you to come and join us on the smoking dash Facebook group. And so I always like to share a recipe during this portion of the show. And all the recipes also make available out there on that Facebook group smoking dash. Now john, you said you had a recipe for us you wanted to share today?

Unknown: 47:24

Yeah, so I think lots of people have picked up pandemic hobbies over the course of the last last year or so, while we've all been stuck at home, one of mine is smoking. I early on in the pandemic I picked up a pellet smoker from a company called guerrilla grills which is in Western Michigan highly if you want to get into smoking kicker. Yeah and are looking for and are looking for a pellet grill. I cannot say more good things about guerilla as a as a company, they stand behind the product great customer service to solid product anyway. So so that's one of the pandemic hobbies I picked up was learning how to smoke meats on my on my on my pellet smoker and I thought I would I'd offer something a little different than the traditional kind of pork but ribs, brisket take on smoking, it's a smoked sausage and peppers. So I it is about a pound and a half of you can use any kind of sausage you want I use just a sweet Italian sausage on the top rack of the smoker. smoker smokers set it to 50 not a pound and a half of sweet Italian sausage on the top rack underneath the sausage to the fat from the sausage as it cooks down drips in an aluminum pan with sliced red onion and then slice bell peppers, two to three bell peppers I use I'm going to try to mix the colors up to give the dish a little bit of color underneath the sausage and so you cook all that on the smoker for about 45 minutes. Let the let the sausages cook the fat drip down render in the peppers and onions salt and pepper on the peppers and onions before they before they go on the grill. 45 minutes the sausage should be done. Leave the peppers and onions on the smoker. Take the sausages off slice them down. Then take the sliced sausage. Toss it in with the peppers and onions along with a 28 ounce can of really really high quality like diced tomatoes. some parmesan and mozzarella cheese, red peppers, oregano and pasta cooked any kind of pasta you want. I usually use Penny This so it would be a cooked penny. Then tossed in with the sausage, the peppers, the onions, the diced tomatoes, the cheese, let it warm up for 15 or 20 minutes on the smoker in the pan all tossed up together. And then bring it inside with a nice low for crunchy bread and it is in a salad and

Paul Simkins: 50:20

it is fantastic. Wow, that sounds terrific. Says smoked smoked sausage and peppers and onions. Yeah. on the grill. Wow. On the smoker. Wow. That is terrific. The I'd almost be inclined to throw a few cloves of garlic in there with all that too and let that smoke in there.

Unknown: 50:37

That also Yes, you can certainly do that as well.

Paul Simkins: 50:40

Yeah, that's one of my favorite things to make is a smoked garlic. I'll get like the elephant garlic, the big bulbs and put it in the smoker for an hour. And and again, you just it softens it up. You just squeeze it out there and

Unknown: 50:53

spread it on bread or Yeah, exactly. Yep.

Paul Simkins: 50:57

All right, great. Thank you so much. And again, that recipe will be available on the smoking ash Facebook group. And you can find it out there. Or again, if you're not a big Facebook person, just send me an email at Paul at boldly lead.com. And we'll be glad to send that along to you. So our guest today was the master of workplace shot in Florida. Attorney john Hyman and john. So tell us what are you working on right now that you're really excited about?

Unknown: 51:28

The hot issue right now that's facing employers that I'm getting tons of calls on is the COVID vaccine. Everybody wants to know, can we force employees to get vaccinated? What are you recommending? How do we handle employees that have reasons why they might not want to get vaccinated. That's been the hottest you I've been dealing with over the past few weeks. And that's what most of my clients are, at least is on front of mine right now. Because as we all understand the vaccine is what is hopefully going to bring us out of this out of this mess of a tunnel that we've been living in for the past. You know, think of it like a mountain tunnel on a highway with like 25 cars filed, you know, inside of the tunnel like smoking and burning as they all crash, it feels like where we been and there's a little little ray of light that shining through that's gonna let us get through to the other side. And so and that's the vaccine. And and so everybody wants to know what we can do with our folks. And so that's been taking up a lot of my time recently, advising employers on what they can do from a vaccine from a vaccination policy standpoint with their folks.

Paul Simkins: 52:32

Oh, great. So somebody wants to get a hold of john, what's the best way to do that?

Unknown: 52:37

The best way to do it, is you can frankly, just Google john Hyman employment lawyer because I don't hide online. I'm very kind of out there. But you could go to my law firms website. The firm is Myers Roman freedberg and Louis and Cleveland, Ohio Myers Roman me why ers r o ma n.com. And you could find me there. You can find me at my blog, the Ohio employer law blog, Ohio employer law block comm which since March, I've also rebranded as the Coronavirus law blog. So if you go to Coronavirus law.bl o g, since it seems like that's all that really matters anymore. Anyway, that'll take you to the same place. You can find me on Twitter at john Hyman that's no h JONHY ma n you can find me on LinkedIn, which is where Paul and I connected at Jonathan Hyman because john Hyman when I signed up for LinkedIn was taken by some doctor in New Jersey or something. And so I had to go with Jonathan, which no one calls me but my mom when she's mad at me. So but again, I don't hide if you literally just Google john Hyman employment lawyer. You'll go, Google will give you 15 different ways to find me. Great. Thank

Paul Simkins: 53:46

you, john. Now, before we go, did you want to do a quick little thing as your as your job as an unpaid manager of your kids rock and roll career and do a little plug there? Sure.

Unknown: 53:58

You can go to nor Murray music.com that's N o r h. Murray. Ma Ri e music.com. That's her website. She's 14. But you'll find some demos. There are some videos and then the links to all of her socials. Her band she also fronts a rock band fake ID official band calm and you can find that's their website. And you can find the info for the band there as well. So it's a she did a charity stream last night for a local there's a local online music festival that a local musician started up back in March that every month does a 48 hour online music festival with a different local musician plays in our set, and each month they raise money for charity last night was the December was the December festival the lat this weekend. And so she played last night raising money for the hunger network which is a fantastic local charity here in Northeast Ohio that raises money for families in need which is As as the pandemic has illustrated, I mean, hunger is a huge issue. Food insecurity as more and more families and people are without the basic food, they need to get them through the day. And they raised I think, overall, I think they raised close to $10,000 over the weekend for the hunger network. And so it's it's Yeah, so. So it's, it's, it made me feel good that she was able to take her talents to do something good. For those in need, particularly, as we're recording this. We're four days out from Christmas. So the holiday season, it made me feel good as a parent that I'm doing something right. So great. Terrific. Thank

Paul Simkins: 55:35

you, john. Thanks for being on the show today.

Unknown: 55:37

Yeah, thank you, Paul. I really appreciate it. All right, folks.

Paul Simkins: 55:40

Well, that's about all we have time for today. Again, we'll be back again with you next week. Until then go out and be the leader. You were meant to be.